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FFT
Lion King
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1097
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 3:15 |
Nothing more than "humans and snakes aren't going to get along".
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 15:5 |
Sure. Helpfully it was written significantly after the prophecy was supposedly given.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 32:18 |
I don't see how this is really a prophecy. It's just Jacob telling people what to say if they meet Esau.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 17:7 |
Funny, don't you believe that the covenant got rewritten with Christ?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 12:1-15/1Corth. 5:7-8 |
In the context of Exodus 12 it's a command from God, not a prophecy.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 32:13 |
Uh. Moses reminding God of Genesis 15:5? That's prophecy?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Deut. 18:15-18 |
It's basically God saying "I'm gonna make prophets, dudes".
| rdw182 wrote: | | Numbers 19:1 |
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, "
I don't get it. How is this a prophecy? And the rest of the chapter is commands from God, not prophecy.
From the perspective of King David. It's not a messianic prophecy, or a prophecy at all.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Isaiah 9:6-7 |
Isaiah 9 is both a history of and a prophecy about Hezekiah.
It always astounds me when Christians accept that Micah 5 actually is a messianic prophecy, although they tend to fail to read the chapter as a whole. Or do, and ignore it, since it's very clear that it's not about Jesus.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
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Arthwollipot
Emperor of the World
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 3276
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | Nope.
Acts 2:17-21 is a quote from Joel 2:12-14. |
You may have got your verses wrong there, rdw.
Acts 2:17-21:
| Quote: | 17 In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved. |
Joel 2:12-14
| Quote: | 12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God. |
(NIV, from BibleGateway, the most comprehensive searchable multi-version Bible on the web)
These two passages certainly don't seem to be saying anything like the same thing. Acts 2 says that in the last days, God will pour out his spirit on the people, who will start to prophecy (this one was a favourite of the Pentacostal church I used to attend). Joel is saying that you should return to God in the end times and says nothing at all about prophecy.
I think you're using Joel 10 (which says that there will be earthquakes, and the sun, moon and stars will not shine) as a parallel to Acts 2:20, even though Joel says that the moon will be "dark" while Acts says that the moon will be "as blood".
Ah. I see it now.
Joel 2:28-31 is almost word-for-word to Acts 2:17-20. Okay, I'll concede that small point for now, but you should be more careful about which verses you refer to, rdw. I always learned the passage from Acts, but I confess that I hadn't actually found this passage in Joel.
Anyway, all this proves is that Joel predicts that there will be prophets in the end times. "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions."
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chrevbel
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 378
Location: USA - Midwest
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Modern Prophecy |
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| rdw182 wrote: | | Now you are rejecting Biblical prophecy and in fact you are actually making fun of them. |
Not at all. I'm pointing out the inconsistency of those who insist on making biblical prophecy something it was never intended to be. |
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politas
Lion King
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1203
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | | It is amazing then that it is still an all time best seller isn't it? |
Getting less so all the time. Not that popularity of a religion has anything to do with the accuracy of its claims.
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rdw182
Labrador
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 305
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 3:15 |
Nothing more than "humans and snakes aren't going to get along".
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 15:5 |
Sure. Helpfully it was written significantly after the prophecy was supposedly given.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 32:18 |
I don't see how this is really a prophecy. It's just Jacob telling people what to say if they meet Esau.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 17:7 |
Funny, don't you believe that the covenant got rewritten with Christ?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 12:1-15/1Corth. 5:7-8 |
In the context of Exodus 12 it's a command from God, not a prophecy.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 32:13 |
Uh. Moses reminding God of Genesis 15:5? That's prophecy?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Deut. 18:15-18 |
It's basically God saying "I'm gonna make prophets, dudes".
| rdw182 wrote: | | Numbers 19:1 |
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, "
I don't get it. How is this a prophecy? And the rest of the chapter is commands from God, not prophecy.
From the perspective of King David. It's not a messianic prophecy, or a prophecy at all.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Isaiah 9:6-7 |
Isaiah 9 is both a history of and a prophecy about Hezekiah.
It always astounds me when Christians accept that Micah 5 actually is a messianic prophecy, although they tend to fail to read the chapter as a whole. Or do, and ignore it, since it's very clear that it's not about Jesus. |
Well there you have it. Total rejection of the Bible.
Not much else can be said from me.
Numbers 19:1 was a misprint on my part.
*
[quote="FFT"] | rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 3:15 |
Nothing more than "humans and snakes aren't going to get along".
This is the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. "HER" seed is a suggestion of the virgin birth of the Messiah.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 15:5 |
Sure. Helpfully it was written significantly after the prophecy was supposedly given.
NOPE. It is a renewed promise of God to Abraham which dated by to Genesis 12:7 which predates all the prophecies to Abraham. Some one gave you some bad advice!!! Wrong!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 32:18 |
I don't see how this is really a prophecy. It's just Jacob telling people what to say if they meet Esau.
One must look deeper into it than just what to say. The gift which he sent was very large, amounting to a total of 580 animals. His animals included goats and sheep, cattle, camels, and asses,(5) and he designated some of each for Esau. He had little time to assemble them; so he took merely "that which came to his hand," dividing them apparently into five separate droves; (Five Denotes Divine grace. It is God adding His gifts and blessing to the works of His hands. The Greek for Grace, is also a multiple of five. It is the leading factor in the Tabernacle measurements.) First the goats, then the sheep, then the camels, then the cattle, then the asses. (5)He told his servants to keep a good distance between the respective droves, so that in effect Esau would receive five separate gifts at different times.
32:18 IT IS A PRESENT
He instructed the servants in command of each drove to tell Esau that the animals were a gift from Jacob, who was following along behind them.. Each shepherd was to follow his herd, rather than lead it, in order to impress Esau first of all with the herd, then the message that the herd was a gift for him. Wrong again!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 17:7 |
Funny, don't you believe that the covenant got rewritten with Christ?
Irrevelant! The point is that IT IS A PROPHECY whether or not it was rewritten by Christ is simply not the point is it now. You did not address this as a prophcecy so then your answer must be no. Wrong again!!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 12:1-15/1Corth. 5:7-8 |
In the context of Exodus 12 it's a command from God, not a prophecy.
Nope. It is a prophecy which was fulfilled by 1 Corth. 5:7-8.
The blood over door post was what saved the men. The blood of Christ is what saves today. The Passover was a type, or a prophecy of things to come in Christ. Wrong again!!!!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Exodus 32:13 |
Uh. Moses reminding God of Genesis 15:5? That's prophecy?
Better read it again grass hopper. It is that same covenant you posted just a second ago. If it was a prophecy then it still is in Ex. 32 13. Moses is praying that God will keep His promise. Wrong Again!!!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Deut. 18:15-18 |
It's basically God saying "I'm gonna make prophets, dudes".
NOPE. Read 18 again. "I will raise them up "A" prophet from among them their brethren". This is another prophecy of the coming of Jesus/Messiah. Wrong again!!!!
| rdw182 wrote: | | Numbers 19:1 |
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, "
I don't get it. How is this a prophecy? And the rest of the chapter is commands from God, not prophecy.
Verse #1 begins the instructions on the cleaning of those who sin while on the march. The sinner was sprinkled with the ashes of a red heifer and spring water to deal with his sin. This is a picture/type/ prophecy of the way God will deal with sin in the future. It is about being clean before God. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples. His blood washes the sinner clean today.
From the perspective of King David. It's not a messianic prophecy, or a prophecy at all.
Wrong again. It is all about Jesus. No one can read these verses and not see Jesus in them. It is Jesus on the cross. The events listed "transend" David's own experiences and point clearly to the cross of his grandson, Jesus. You have missed another one.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Isaiah 9:6-7 |
Isaiah 9 is both a history of and a prophecy about Hezekiah.
You make me laugh! What is the Atheist web site you are copying from?
This is about the coming Messiah.
Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot be referring to the reign of Hezekiah. For Isaiah says elsewhere of Hezekiah in 39:5-7, "Here the word of the LORD Almighty: The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon." And this would be the opposite of the requirement that "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end." So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 has to be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace.
It always astounds me when Christians accept that Micah 5 actually is a messianic prophecy, although they tend to fail to read the chapter as a whole. Or do, and ignore it, since it's very clear that it's not about Jesus
Micah 5:2 is one of the clearest indicators given in the Hebrew Scriptures for identifying the Messiah, a prophecy which both pinpoints the exact birth location of the Messiah, as well as telling us much about the charactre and power of this Anointed One. For this reason, Micah 5:2 has also been one of the most maligned prophecies in the Bible, discounted and twisted by those who choose not to see the clear fulfillment of this passage as it is found in Matthew's Gospel. By altering the understanding of what Micah 5:2 is saying from the understanding that has been traditionally held by both Jews and Christians, opponents of the Gospel hope to cast doubt on Matthew's claim of fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus Christ. It can not be done.
Thank you for allowing me to once again show how someone who has rejected God can and will manuver the facts to fit their wrong choices.
I could have listed much longer answers but when do in the past they drew cries of protest. So there you have it.
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FFT
Lion King
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1097
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | Well there you have it. Total rejection of the Bible.
Not much else can be said from me. |
So the fact that I explained why I rejected what I did is irrelevant?
| rdw182 wrote: | | This is the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. "HER" seed is a suggestion of the virgin birth of the Messiah. |
First, it's got nothing to do with the messiah. It's not a messianic prophecy. It's just God saying "humans and snakes aren't going to get along". Secondly, how do you derive that it's suggesting a virgin birth?
| rdw182 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 15:5 |
Sure. Helpfully it was written significantly after the prophecy was supposedly given. |
NOPE. It is a renewed promise of God to Abraham which dated by to Genesis 12:7 which predates all the prophecies to Abraham. Some one gave you some bad advice!!! Wrong! |
Um. When do you think that it was written into Genesis?
| rdw182 wrote: | | He instructed the servants in command of each drove to tell Esau that the animals were a gift from Jacob, who was following along behind them.. Each shepherd was to follow his herd, rather than lead it, in order to impress Esau first of all with the herd, then the message that the herd was a gift for him. Wrong again! |
Hm. One of us is rather lost. How was this a prophecy, exactly?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Irrevelant! The point is that IT IS A PROPHECY whether or not it was rewritten by Christ is simply not the point is it now. You did not address this as a prophcecy so then your answer must be no. Wrong again!! |
The prophecy claims that the covenant is eternal. I'm pointing out inconsistencies in your beliefs, I'm well aware of the fact that it was a prophecy. It's just that no Christian can consistently believe that the covenant was "finished" with Jesus and that the covenant is eternal.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Nope. It is a prophecy which was fulfilled by 1 Corth. 5:7-8. |
How on Earth do you parse God saying "hey, do this stuff" as a prophecy?
| rdw182 wrote: | | The blood over door post was what saved the men. The blood of Christ is what saves today. The Passover was a type, or a prophecy of things to come in Christ. Wrong again!!!! |
That doesn't make it a prophecy, it makes it something that got repeated.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Better read it again grass hopper. It is that same covenant you posted just a second ago. If it was a prophecy then it still is in Ex. 32 13. Moses is praying that God will keep His promise. Wrong Again!!! |
I'm not debating that Genesis 17:7 isn't prophecy. It is. Exodus 32:13 isn't.
| rdw182 wrote: | | NOPE. Read 18 again. "I will raise them up "A" prophet from among them their brethren". This is another prophecy of the coming of Jesus/Messiah. Wrong again!!!! |
And yet there were what, 50 prophets afterwards? And it's using the word prophet?
Hint: it's God establishing the office of the prophet.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Verse #1 begins the instructions on the cleaning of those who sin while on the march. The sinner was sprinkled with the ashes of a red heifer and spring water to deal with his sin. This is a picture/type/ prophecy of the way God will deal with sin in the future. It is about being clean before God. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples. His blood washes the sinner clean today. |
I think you're skipping quite a bit of the chapter to end up with this interpretation.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Wrong again. It is all about Jesus. No one can read these verses and not see Jesus in them. It is Jesus on the cross. The events listed "transend" David's own experiences and point clearly to the cross of his grandson, Jesus. You have missed another one. |
It's easy to fit Jesus into it because that's what the writers of the New Testament were trying to do in the first place. The problem is, it's about David. It's not a messianic prophecy.
| rdw182 wrote: | | So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. |
Well, yeah. Wouldn't be the only instance of obviously false prophecy sticking around in one of the books of the prophets. Except that the problem isn't the prophecy it's the English translation of it.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 has to be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace. |
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the authority was placed upon his shoulder, and [he] called his name: Wondrous Adviser, Mighty G-d [or, Mighty Hero], Eternal Patron, Ruler of Peace; for the increase of the authority and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the L-rd of Hosts shall accomplish this.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Micah 5:2 is one of the clearest indicators given in the Hebrew Scriptures for identifying the Messiah, a prophecy which both pinpoints the exact birth location of the Messiah |
No. It identifies the clan he would be born from. The House of Lehem. Not a place. That leads to Ruth, one of David's ancestors. Which doesn't actually tell us much about the lineage of the messiah that wasn't already covered (Isaiah 11:1, the messiah will be descended from David's father).
| rdw182 wrote: | | By altering the understanding of what Micah 5:2 is saying from the understanding that has been traditionally held by both Jews and Christians, opponents of the Gospel hope to cast doubt on Matthew's claim of fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus Christ. It can not be done. |
Except that people better-acquainted with Hebrew realize that it's not saying anything at all about where the messiah would be born but rather the lineage.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Thank you for allowing me to once again show how someone who has rejected God can and will manuver the facts to fit their wrong choices. |
It's too bad you're wrong about pretty much all of it.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Arthwollipot
Emperor of the World
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
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Location: Australia
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rdw182
Labrador
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 305
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Arthwollipot wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | Nope.
Acts 2:17-21 is a quote from Joel 2:12-14. |
You may have got your verses wrong there, rdw.
Acts 2:17-21:
| Quote: | 17 In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved. |
Joel 2:12-14
| Quote: | 12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God. |
(NIV, from BibleGateway, the most comprehensive searchable multi-version Bible on the web)
These two passages certainly don't seem to be saying anything like the same thing. Acts 2 says that in the last days, God will pour out his spirit on the people, who will start to prophecy (this one was a favourite of the Pentacostal church I used to attend). Joel is saying that you should return to God in the end times and says nothing at all about prophecy.
I think you're using Joel 10 (which says that there will be earthquakes, and the sun, moon and stars will not shine) as a parallel to Acts 2:20, even though Joel says that the moon will be "dark" while Acts says that the moon will be "as blood".
Ah. I see it now.
Joel 2:28-31 is almost word-for-word to Acts 2:17-20. Okay, I'll concede that small point for now, but you should be more careful about which verses you refer to, rdw. I always learned the passage from Acts, but I confess that I hadn't actually found this passage in Joel.
Anyway, all this proves is that Joel predicts that there will be prophets in the end times. "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." |
I am glad to find that there is common ground here.
May I tell you something and please do not be offended by this, but I have found that many, many people get the wrong Bible doctrine when attending Pentacostal churches. If they study the Scripture They ultimatly find out that "speaking in tongues, healing by a man, properity, name it and claim it" are all non valid requirements for today. That in fact then turns them from God instead of to God. Do you think that this may have affected you in some way?
Joel 2:28-32 has been made to say what they want it to say. It has to be understood in the context that it was given. AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS AFTERWARD in verse 28 relates this passage to the immediate restoration following the locust plague. This disserentiates the locust plague from the "day of the Lord".The key to that is simple.........
The locust plage was preseded by nothing. The Day of the Lord is preseded by the Tribulation Peroid of 7 years (Daniel's 70th week).
Peter quoted this verse in Acts 2 because people were saying that the folowers of Jesus were DRUNK when in fact they were speaking in tongues.
The church is a mystery that was not revealed before the prophecy of Matthew 16 and it is in no way seen in the Old Testament. It seems to me that it is then best to view Peters statement as saying that the outpouring of the Spirit of God prompted the phenomena seen in Acts 2 which then becomes the fulfillment of that which was said by Joel.
Notice that it must be this way due to the fact that Joel said, "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people". The event in Acts 2 was a local event which was taking place in Jerusalem.
Nice to talk Scripture with you without the confromtation effect that seems to inhabit this site.
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rdw182
Labrador
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| politas wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | | It is amazing then that it is still an all time best seller isn't it? |
Getting less so all the time. Not that popularity of a religion has anything to do with the accuracy of its claims. |
Agreed. It was simply a statement of fact.
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Arthwollipot
Emperor of the World
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 3276
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | I am glad to find that there is common ground here.
May I tell you something and please do not be offended by this, but I have found that many, many people get the wrong Bible doctrine when attending Pentacostal churches. If they study the Scripture They ultimatly find out that "speaking in tongues, healing by a man, properity, name it and claim it" are all non valid requirements for today. That in fact then turns them from God instead of to God. Do you think that this may have affected you in some way? |
No, not really. I left the church for other reasons, like the fact that they lied to me about some things, and that they systematically went about separating me from all of my friends. I had no idea at that time whether their doctrine was mainstream or not - in fact, I had no reason to believe that they were not.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Nice to talk Scripture with you without the confromtation effect that seems to inhabit this site. |
I am the first to admit that I am a novice, and that I get a lot of things wrong. I am an atheist, but I am sympathetic to many aspects of religion, and quite frankly religion fascinates me - as a psychological and sociological phenomenon. I'm not an antitheist of the mould of Dawkins and Harris. Although I admire them for a lot of reasons, I don't agree with everything that they say.
I enjoy discussing scripture, and the interpretation thereof, so long as you don't try to use it to preach to me, or as a basis for an attempt at conversion. That won't work, and will only annoy me.
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rdw182
Labrador
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 305
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Arthwollipot wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | I am glad to find that there is common ground here.
May I tell you something and please do not be offended by this, but I have found that many, many people get the wrong Bible doctrine when attending Pentacostal churches. If they study the Scripture They ultimatly find out that "speaking in tongues, healing by a man, properity, name it and claim it" are all non valid requirements for today. That in fact then turns them from God instead of to God. Do you think that this may have affected you in some way? |
No, not really. I left the church for other reasons, like the fact that they lied to me about some things, and that they systematically went about separating me from all of my friends. I had no idea at that time whether their doctrine was mainstream or not - in fact, I had no reason to believe that they were not.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Nice to talk Scripture with you without the confromtation effect that seems to inhabit this site. |
I am the first to admit that I am a novice, and that I get a lot of things wrong. I am an atheist, but I am sympathetic to many aspects of religion, and quite frankly religion fascinates me - as a psychological and sociological phenomenon. I'm not an antitheist of the mould of Dawkins and Harris. Although I admire them for a lot of reasons, I don't agree with everything that they say.
I enjoy discussing scripture, and the interpretation thereof, so long as you don't try to use it to preach to me, or as a basis for an attempt at conversion. That won't work, and will only annoy me. |
Oh no my friend. You are on your own there. I can and will go back and forth in trying to explain what I have learned over the years when it comes to the Scriptures, but you already know what it takes to be a Christian and preaching would do absolutly nothing for you.
Believe me when I tell you that you are not the first one to be disillusioned by the Pentacostal teaching.
Hang in there, life is tough but good as well.
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rdw182
Labrador
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | Well there you have it. Total rejection of the Bible.
Not much else can be said from me. |
So the fact that I explained why I rejected what I did is irrelevant?
| rdw182 wrote: | | This is the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. "HER" seed is a suggestion of the virgin birth of the Messiah. |
First, it's got nothing to do with the messiah. It's not a messianic prophecy. It's just God saying "humans and snakes aren't going to get along". Secondly, how do you derive that it's suggesting a virgin birth?
| rdw182 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | rdw182 wrote: | | Genesis 15:5 |
Sure. Helpfully it was written significantly after the prophecy was supposedly given. |
NOPE. It is a renewed promise of God to Abraham which dated by to Genesis 12:7 which predates all the prophecies to Abraham. Some one gave you some bad advice!!! Wrong! |
Um. When do you think that it was written into Genesis?
| rdw182 wrote: | | He instructed the servants in command of each drove to tell Esau that the animals were a gift from Jacob, who was following along behind them.. Each shepherd was to follow his herd, rather than lead it, in order to impress Esau first of all with the herd, then the message that the herd was a gift for him. Wrong again! |
Hm. One of us is rather lost. How was this a prophecy, exactly?
| rdw182 wrote: | | Irrevelant! The point is that IT IS A PROPHECY whether or not it was rewritten by Christ is simply not the point is it now. You did not address this as a prophcecy so then your answer must be no. Wrong again!! |
The prophecy claims that the covenant is eternal. I'm pointing out inconsistencies in your beliefs, I'm well aware of the fact that it was a prophecy. It's just that no Christian can consistently believe that the covenant was "finished" with Jesus and that the covenant is eternal.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Nope. It is a prophecy which was fulfilled by 1 Corth. 5:7-8. |
How on Earth do you parse God saying "hey, do this stuff" as a prophecy?
| rdw182 wrote: | | The blood over door post was what saved the men. The blood of Christ is what saves today. The Passover was a type, or a prophecy of things to come in Christ. Wrong again!!!! |
That doesn't make it a prophecy, it makes it something that got repeated.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Better read it again grass hopper. It is that same covenant you posted just a second ago. If it was a prophecy then it still is in Ex. 32 13. Moses is praying that God will keep His promise. Wrong Again!!! |
I'm not debating that Genesis 17:7 isn't prophecy. It is. Exodus 32:13 isn't.
| rdw182 wrote: | | NOPE. Read 18 again. "I will raise them up "A" prophet from among them their brethren". This is another prophecy of the coming of Jesus/Messiah. Wrong again!!!! |
And yet there were what, 50 prophets afterwards? And it's using the word prophet?
Hint: it's God establishing the office of the prophet.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Verse #1 begins the instructions on the cleaning of those who sin while on the march. The sinner was sprinkled with the ashes of a red heifer and spring water to deal with his sin. This is a picture/type/ prophecy of the way God will deal with sin in the future. It is about being clean before God. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples. His blood washes the sinner clean today. |
I think you're skipping quite a bit of the chapter to end up with this interpretation.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Wrong again. It is all about Jesus. No one can read these verses and not see Jesus in them. It is Jesus on the cross. The events listed "transend" David's own experiences and point clearly to the cross of his grandson, Jesus. You have missed another one. |
It's easy to fit Jesus into it because that's what the writers of the New Testament were trying to do in the first place. The problem is, it's about David. It's not a messianic prophecy.
| rdw182 wrote: | | So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. |
Well, yeah. Wouldn't be the only instance of obviously false prophecy sticking around in one of the books of the prophets. Except that the problem isn't the prophecy it's the English translation of it.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 has to be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace. |
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the authority was placed upon his shoulder, and [he] called his name: Wondrous Adviser, Mighty G-d [or, Mighty Hero], Eternal Patron, Ruler of Peace; for the increase of the authority and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the L-rd of Hosts shall accomplish this.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Micah 5:2 is one of the clearest indicators given in the Hebrew Scriptures for identifying the Messiah, a prophecy which both pinpoints the exact birth location of the Messiah |
No. It identifies the clan he would be born from. The House of Lehem. Not a place. That leads to Ruth, one of David's ancestors. Which doesn't actually tell us much about the lineage of the messiah that wasn't already covered (Isaiah 11:1, the messiah will be descended from David's father).
| rdw182 wrote: | | By altering the understanding of what Micah 5:2 is saying from the understanding that has been traditionally held by both Jews and Christians, opponents of the Gospel hope to cast doubt on Matthew's claim of fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus Christ. It can not be done. |
Except that people better-acquainted with Hebrew realize that it's not saying anything at all about where the messiah would be born but rather the lineage.
| rdw182 wrote: | | Thank you for allowing me to once again show how someone who has rejected God can and will manuver the facts to fit their wrong choices. |
It's too bad you're wrong about pretty much all of it. |
Yes, one of us is certainly lost. I wonder if you could list some of the resources you used to come to your conclusions?
I have used:
"The Prophecy Knowledge Hand Book" by John Walvoord
"The Glorious Journey" by Charles Stanley
"Thru the Bible" by J. Vernon McGee
"The Gospel Story" by Oliver B. Green
"Things to Come" by Dwight Pentacost
"The Bible" by Edward Hinson
The Apocrypha
The Pentatuch
The Bible Cirliculum by Dl. Moody
I'm just curious to where you have your education from.
It would seem to me that you are Jewish and if so, then I would totally understand why you are working so hard to disprove the things that point to Christ.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying, nice doggy;
until you can find a big stick. |
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FFT
Lion King
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1097
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| rdw182 wrote: | | Yes, one of us is certainly lost. I wonder if you could list some of the resources you used to come to your conclusions? |
The Bible and reasoning. As well as a few Jewish sources for a few bits and pieces. I trust them to be less biased about the Old Testament, especially when it's become obvious that Christians tend to bend it to their will in ways it doesn't actually go.
| rdw182 wrote: | | It would seem to me that you are Jewish and if so, then I would totally understand why you are working so hard to disprove the things that point to Christ. |
I'm not Jewish. I used to be Christian before I started actually reading the Bible.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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